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Post by lilyscavies on Jun 16, 2007 23:19:17 GMT -5
Okay I KNOW I messed the spelling of that up. For some reason, it just does not look right to me. Anyhow, I seem to have an issue with calcium, lake there of, it seems. I feed alfalfa hay at least once every 2 weeks, they receive veggies 2-3 times a week and for some reason I am not feeding some of my prego sows enough of it. Last week I lost a sow, ths week we have a satin that is having issues. I have never had this issue before till this last year past year. Could if be a food thing? I have changed my food, but have added a seinor horse feed to it too. Help me, please!! I am really getting tired of loosing sows and/or babies too Edona
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Post by Mildred on Jun 17, 2007 11:03:12 GMT -5
I am very sorry for your losses.
Satins are especially known to have issues with calcium. Have you tried giving your animal in distress a TUMS mixed in a tablesthingy or two of warm water? Feed with an eyedropper a whole TUMS every few hours. Powdered calcium is also available in some health food stores or specialty grocery stores such as Sprouts. Add it to the drinking water.
I feed a Timothy/Orchard grass hay everyday and fresh veggies everyday. All animals have an 18% protein feed supplemented with Calf Manna 24/7. Food bowls are not ever empty. Veggies especially good for pregger sows: kale, parsley, and cilantro.
What feed are you using?
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Post by lilyscavies on Jun 17, 2007 15:06:42 GMT -5
I have been reading that the satins do require more calcium. I do the TUMS thing with some keron syrup, but it never seems to work out for me. So I am going to hit the health food store tomorrow, so I have things on hand. I know it will happen again, I just hope that we can catch it before things get too far gone. I have been using King for the past year or so now. I was on Muzori (sp), but with the price and the number of bags I now go through, it was costing WAY too much.
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biblecat
Cavy Nut
Way Cool Cavies!
Posts: 67
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Post by biblecat on Jun 17, 2007 16:13:36 GMT -5
I'm really sorry Edona. I don' t like to bad mouth anyone or company especially because the King Feed people seem so nice and wholly endorse their feed. Here's my story about it.
I went started on King because it was local and I thought maybe fresher. Plus it had all kinds of good stuff in it that the other feeds didn't seem to have. I made it through the first breeding cycle just fine. It was on the second cycle that I started to have problems. By the third cycle (a little more than a year into it) I lost16 out of 17 pups and two of the sows. Every single sow went toxic on me. Some didn't recover but all the pups died in utero. I managed to save one solitary pup and he has been a good producer for me. I decided, like you did that calcium was the issue. I switched feed and started supplementing. I gave every single pig a little calcium every other day for about a week. I used a liquid calcium/ mineral supplement I got at the health food store. I figured if the calcium was low who knows what else might be.
As for the pregnant sows, I gave them about 1/2 cc a day for the rest of their pregnancies (about two weeks. When I thought they were getting close to delivery I induced labor by giving a shot of oxytocin. They had a little trouble but did deliver mostly live litters. I kept supplementing the mom for a few days after the birth.
The next round of breedings were due to deliver about 3-4 months later. I figured they had been on the new feed long enough to help them get through it without extra calcium. They mostly did just fine but I decided I like the lower risk of inducing labor so I usually do it now and have very few dead pups. I missed one the other day and she went ahead and delivered without my help/ intervention. Of the 5 pups, three were dead when I got out there and two were alive. I wish I had induced her the night before like I was thinking I should do!
Now I only give calcium to moms who seem like they are having trouble. It usually hits the last couple of weeks but I'd say only about 1 in 15 or so need extra calcium now.
Oh and one more thing....you might try some Isomil baby formula. Lots of calcium and iron and other goodies in it. I have to use a syringe to get the sows to take it at first but usually once they have it they really love it. If they will take it you can hang a bottle on the cage and they will guzzle. I just got a sow through a tough last two weeks of her pregnancy that way. She stopped eating and drinking. Then I hung the bottle of formula on the cage and she ran over and drank two ounces in one sitting and another two ounces later in the day. By evening she was eating pellets again. It works great. I try to train my sow pups to like it from birth on because I really rely on it when things go bad for a pup or a mom.
I hope this helps. Like I said I had to bad mouth anyone's livelihood, but I had a horrible experience with their feed and would never use it. Good luck with your momma and babies. It is so discouraging when you have a streak like that going. Cathy
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Post by lilyscavies on Jun 17, 2007 19:05:41 GMT -5
Thank you Cathy. I have been hearing more and more of that simular issue with King. What do you use? With the increase in piggies, we are sitting at about 60, we go through about a 50lb bag every 10-14 days. I know somone that lost just about all her roan sows, after switching to King too. I agree with you, I hate to bad mouth a company. Maybe they have not been told about this issue, people are having with their product. I think I am going to let them know what has been happening so maybe they can change it. The sad thing is the ones I have been loosing have been my youngest daughter's sows. This last one was one of her favorites too. My concern about waiting is that I seem to never catch them soon enough to save them. I will try the Isomil. Anything has to be better than nothing. I just hate to change food with 6 piggies waiting to have babies. Maybe I will go back to Mazurli (sp) feed. It cost more, but if I don't have to keep adding stuff to it, the cost about evens out. I don't have much of a choice when it comes to piggy food up in Northern CA.. ANyone else have any suggestions for feed? Edona
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biblecat
Cavy Nut
Way Cool Cavies!
Posts: 67
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Post by biblecat on Jun 18, 2007 9:40:46 GMT -5
A lot of people swear by Mazuri but I had the same problem with it as with King. I used it when I first started in pigs and lost my first three litters and one of my sows. Now I use Lab Diet and Cavylets mixed, along with some other things. I think they are both very good feeds and I don't have the problems I used to have anymore.
If it were me I'd go ahead and switch the feed asap (switching slowly over a week or so) so that they can get the nutrition at least for the last part of their pregnancies. Most feed stores that carry Purina can order Lab Diet. I like it because it is a fixed formula so they don't change it based on what is in season. It is made for the laboratory animals so it has to be good quality and stable. It isn't very expensive here. I think if your store has Mazuri they should be able to get Lab Diet. When I had my crisis with King feed I switched over the ones that had about a month to go and the results were much better than I'd been having.
As for the King people, I talked with them over the course of a couple months about my situation. they tried to be helpful but I was told there was no way they would even think about changing their feed because the guy who developed it was certain it was perfect the way it was. I asked them to please let him know about my experience. I doubt that they did but I'll never go back to it and I know that several others down here have had the same problem you are having. Cheap isn't cheap if you lose animals!
Do try the Isomil. Make sure it is the soy formula. Syringe a little into them a couple times a day until they decide they like it, then hang a bottle of it on the cage. I do think it helps a lot.
Please hug your daughter for me and tell her I'm sorry.
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Post by GONE CAVY on Jun 18, 2007 11:05:26 GMT -5
Im STILL feeding King (its been about 2 years now) and have never had any problems. I do however mix it with Templeton guinea pig pellets which I get directly from the mill, and king brand goat feed along with some calf mana so purhaps with this mix its working as I havent had a pig go toxic on me in a VERY long time, and I hardly ever do calcium or vit C in the water. I just feed fresh veggies (cilantro, parsley, romaine, carrots, tomatoes, bannanas, watermelon, spinach etc) daily along with timothy or orchard daily and my sows produce like crazy.....litters of at least 4 pups.
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Post by lilyscavies on Jun 18, 2007 12:02:20 GMT -5
You know I find it interesting that EVERYONE is adding something (usually more than one item) to their piggy food. If this is suppose to be their food, as in the piggies, then why is no one REALLY making a complete feed for them? I mean by the time you add all the extras you are paying a pretty penny for feed. I know calf mana is not cheep, at least around here. Then I add a horse seinor feed , about 1/2 bag to a 50lb of King food. If I go back to Mazuri feed I will be doubling my costs for feeding, because they only do the 25lb bags., plus I would still be adding things to it too. I am just getting tired of loosing pigs and babies. In the past three months we lost three sows and five babies, not counting the ones inutro. The most interesting thing is that they are all in the house and we are always walking by their cages and see nothing wrong till things go too far "south" to do much good for the pigs. My kids hav grown up on a ranch and know all about life and death, but it sure is getting old with loosing piggies. Thanks for eveyones advise!! Most of our pigs give us at least 4 babies every time, but the newer pigs have given us one or two. Edona
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Post by lilyscavies on Jun 18, 2007 19:50:44 GMT -5
Well, just came back from the feed store and Mazuri is now costing me about $11 per 25lb bag. Last time I bought it, it was about $17-$20 per 25lb bag. I picked up corral calcium today,but they didn't have any liquid. At least I have some now and should do better than TUMS, I hope. Edona
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Post by huntscavies on Jun 19, 2007 3:41:57 GMT -5
Here's my two cents! I like Kim have been feeding Kings brand for about two years and have never had a big problem. This isnt to say I havent lost pigs. What I have seen is more animals that I get from other people, are the ones giving me the problems. Sows that go toxic, a few boars that have stones and a few with really big litters, (to many for my comfort.) But I exspect this to be apart of the process of breeding. No matter what you do you will at sometime during your time of being a breeder fall victum to this in one way or other. I had a breeder friend who had some trouble with losing the sows just before they had their babies, she got to speak to the vet who was the vet for Kings. She sent in all the samples he asked for, hay, water, feed and I think even bedding and a animal. They couldnt find anything wrong with anything she sent in. So he ask how she feed? She told him, veggie, hay everyday, and so on. What he said to her is that she was feeding to much hay and he thought she was cutting down the protein to much for them by feeding the hay everyday. So they decided to try cutting down the hay to every other day and they would keep in touch, well it all seemed to stop almost as fast as it started. I know people have had trouble with the kings but I think its important to whenever you introduce a new feed it must be done as slowly as possible with exceptions! (Feed mill burns down, cant get any more and so on.) It's really hard to say for sure what really happens to an animals when you find them in distress or dead and until we can find a vet who is really dovote to putting his/her time to the study of these aniamls I dont think we will ever know for sure. what the labs use cavies for are only to test thing that have to do with hunmans and not about the animals. I have seen to many breeders start jumping from one feed to another and still not figure it out. Some of these dont even have problem with their animals! I really dont know what the answer is as far as the loses go but the best thing to do is keep a really good record of what is happening and to what animals (blood lines, time of year, weather and so on) and then start by changing one thing or just a couple of thing at a time so not to do any more harm. For all we know some of this can be gentics and other thing together. This is also why I think it helps to ask other breeders and have them give us honest feed back on what has happen to them, without the feed back we cant learn and improve how we breed. Lets face it some breeders dont want anyone else to know whats going on in their caviary. It always bothers me wen breeders say they feed rabbit food and it has cleared everything up and they have no problems of any kind, no sick babies, no unexspected deaths, they even cleard up their pea eye (joke) but I know we have all heard those kinds of thing, right? I like to say when something like this happens you have just become a real breeders, and now you will grow even more because you want answers and are willing to do something about it, LOOK! So hang in there it will get better and Im not sure if you will solve it or mother nature does. Just keep an open mind and ask questions to everyone! Sherrie
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Post by skcavies on Jun 19, 2007 10:23:57 GMT -5
Lillyscavies- Where in Northern California are you? Since I'm also in Northern California. I get my Mazuri from Lee's Feed (www.leesfeed.net) and have never found Mazuri 1$17-$20! I have been getting the same feed from the same feedstore for over 2 years, and was getting hay from the same one, but there is another feedstore just like two minutes away that has better priced hay and always seems fresher. Never have had any problems with any pigs getting sick on the feed or hay. We put Omolene 300 and Calf Manna into their feed, sometimes Oats (when we have them). With the problems we've had, I'd say they were genetic (that was the reason I sold my Amer. Satin Himis as pets- one had 3 out of 4 pups that were stillborns! One ended up developing cataracts and becoming lethargic, took to vet, not diabetes, doing fine, then not so fine, then died. He was only 3 years old too.). The last few litters have been excellent results- the last two not a single stillborn, every baby healthy, and heck, one of the sows that littered was a Aby Satin that was bred at about 13 months old for the first time- her first litter she didn't have a single stillborn. Even though the dad is a reg. boar that needs to get his three legs sent in, 2 out of the 4 of the litter were Aby Satins. One of my sows, which her first litter was a accident, had three healthy girls (Coronet x Americans-ekk!)-no stillborns. Well her second litter (along with the two other girls that had pups on the SAME day!) was three healthy pups- 2 girls, 1 boy- no stillborns. My whole herd is fed veggies daily, same with unlimited amounts of Timothy or Orchard hay. No extra stuff is put in any of my pigs' water (including the preggos). Of the different feeds I tried... they were Cavy Performance by Oxbow hay and Advance Formula Show Diet rabbit feed (though the protein was too low- 16%.), but I didn't like the rabbit feed very much since every day to every other day I had to pour out all the water buckets and then put the Vit. C water back in them again- was too much of a hassle to me. Keep it mind that is could also be genetics or the environment. Satins usually seem to have more problems than the non satins. Yams and Jicama are also good for helping pigs to put on some weight, and most pigs like them. All of my pigs love the Jicama. Though keep it to little slices, since it's high in carbs, and cavies easily gain the weight. Have you tried using the tropical or fruit flavored TUMS? I want to try those to see if the pigs will like those flavors just in case someone needs extra calcium.
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Post by lilyscavies on Jun 19, 2007 10:38:07 GMT -5
Well said Sherri! I did a look and compare to King and Mazuri feeds lastnight. There are things in King that are not in Mazuri. So what I am thinking about doing is mixing the two of them (my pigs seemed to look better on King, yet I like Mauzri too). I did notice that King has beet pulp, which my horse seinor feed has too. So maybe I will also cut back the amount of seinor horse feed in my mix as well. I know there is going to be loses when it comes to breeding, or anytime with no warnings. It is the way of life. But if there are things I could be doing better to imporve things for my pigs, I want to know about it. If I am not giving enough of something I want to know as well as if I am giving them too much of something. What works for one person, might not work for another. By asking questions and sharing information is how we will learn. Changing feed all the time is not always the answer. I don't change it fast with my horses and by far would not do it with my other critters. I would like to add some things, because I think that there is something missing from all the feeds. Everyone is adding something else to thier regular feed, so things are missing from the feed, no matter who is making it. All I know is that I am now keeping a better eye on all of our preger piggies and our record keeping is getting better too!! As long as we are learning something from the deaths of these piggies, I guess it is better than nothing. What I have learned is that calcium is very improtant to the prego pig and I need to make sure that they have a good source of it. I have also learned to keep better records and a closer eye on them as well. I learned the differences in King and Mazuri feeds. I have also learned about the baby formula trick for the sows. I have also learned to ask more questions when buying new pigs. ) Edona
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Post by GONE CAVY on Jun 19, 2007 11:05:53 GMT -5
Someone sent this to me about a comparison of Mazuri/ King feed so I thought Id post for everyone
Mazuri Guinea Pig
Crude Protein 18.0% Crude Fat 4.0 Crude Fiber, Not More Than 16.0 Calcium 1.10% Phosphorus 0.60%
Sodium, not more than 0.35% Lysine, not less than 0.93% Methionine 0.36% Copper 13 PPM Zinc, not less than 75 PPM Selenium, not less than 0.15 PPM Vitamin A 15000 IU/LB Vitamin D 1407 IU/LB Vitamin E, not less than 35 IU/LB Vitamin C, not less than 613 MG/LB Folic Acid, not less than 2.0 MG/LB Digestible Energy, NLT ? Starch, not more than ?
Ingredients Dehydrated alfalfa meal, dehulled soybean meal, ground soybean hulls, ground corn, ground oats, wheat middlings, safflower seed, sunflower seed, whole oats, soybean oil, cane molasses, dicalcium phosphate, monocalcium phosphate, ground wheat, salt, dried whey, calcium carbonate, l-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (vitamin C), magnesium oxide, DL-methionine, choline chloride, vitamin A acetate, dried yucca shidigera extract, cholecalciferol (vitamin D3), d-alpha tocopheryl acetate (natural source vitamin E), pyridoxine hydrochloride, folic acid, calcium pantothenate, thiamin mononitrate, nicotinic acid, cyanocobalamin (vitamin B12), riboflavin, cobalt carbonate, manganous oxide, zinc oxide, ferrous carbonate, copper sulfate, zinc sulfate, calcium iodate, sodium selenite.
KING GUINEA PIG COMPLETE-18% GUARANTEED ANALYSIS: Crude Protein, not less than 18.0% Crude Fat, not less than 4.0% Crude Fiber, not less than 14.0% Crude Fiber, not more than 20.0% Calcium, not less than 0.80% Calcium, not more than 1.20% Phosphorus, not less than 0.50% Sodium, not more than 0.40% Lysine, not less than 0.85% Methionine & Cystine NLT 0.55% Copper, not less than 15 PPM Zinc, not less than 120 PPM Added Selenium, not less than 0.25 PPM Vitamin A, not less than 6000 IU/LB Vitamin D, not more than 700 IU/LB Vitamin E, not less than 40 IU/LB Vitamin C, not less than 120 MG/LB Folic Acid, not less than 2.0 MG/LB Digestible Energy, NLT 1150 KCAL/LB Starch, not more than 11.0%
Ingredients Suncured Alfalfa Meal, Dehulled Soybean Meal, Rice Bran, Dried Beet Pulp, Whole Pressed Safflower Seed Meal, Ground Wheat, Ground Lima Beans, Vegetable Oil, Calcium Carbonate, Monocalcium & Dicalcium Phosphate, Salt, Brewers Yeast Culture, Sodium Lignosulphonate, Vitamin E Supplement, Heat Stable cultures of Lactobacillus acidophilus, L. casei, Bifidobacterium bifidium, Streptococcus faecium and Aspergillus oryzae (direct-fed microbials), L-Ascorbic Acid Phosphate (Stabilized Vitamin C), Mold Inhibitor (Propionic Acid, Acetic Acid, Sorbic Acid, Benzoic Acid, Ammonium Hydroxide), d,l Methionine, Flavoring, Folic Acid, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Chromium Tripicolinate, Mixed Tocopherols, Rosemary Extract, Ascorbic Acid, Citric Acid, Lecithin, Silicon Dioxide (carrier for liquid antioxidants), Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite (source of Vitamin K ), Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Choline Chloride, Niacin Supplement, Thiamine Hydrochloride, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, D-Biotin, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Zinc Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Ethylene Diamine Dihydroiodide, Sodium Selenite.
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Post by skcavies on Jun 19, 2007 15:47:10 GMT -5
" I really dont know what the answer is as far as the loses go but the best thing to do is keep a really good record of what is happening and to what animals (blood lines, time of year, weather and so on) and then start by changing one thing or just a couple of thing at a time so not to do any more harm. " Yes, like you said, keeping good records is VERY important! Busy or not, it only takes a few minutes to type in some records (like DOB of the new pigs, new litter results, etc). I use the fantastic Evans program, so it's easy to do records. But it is also easy to do records on a Microsoft Word Document. Personally, I prefer to get cavies that have pedigrees and the breeders of them kept good records on their herd. Since I like to know every cavy's DOB, so I know what exact day they turn a certain month old, etc. Veggies are a great indication besides holding and checking a cavy, that they are healthy or not. Not to mention, some veggies have a lot of Vit. C and Calcium in them. Try getting the preggos veggies daily. I haven't had problems with cavies getting overweight on veggies. Even though veggies aren't too cheap, it's worth every penny to see everyone healthy and happily munching on one of the best things ever... VEGGIES! Sometimes my pigs have gotten veggies twice daily! Since I feed them, then my dad didn't know I fed them, so then he feeds them. Or if my dad first feeds them, then I didn't think they were fed, so I do. Fruits are ones that I'd consider treats that they don't get too often. Fruits are more like desserts, and we all know cavies have sweet teeth! Apple and Watermelon are a personal favorite of my pigs. But then again... what piggy can resist crunking into a juicy piece of watermelon? LOL
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Post by lilyscavies on Jun 19, 2007 16:44:41 GMT -5
I live by Mayrsville/Yuba City. I was getting Mazuri from a local feed store, as in the same SMALL little town I live in, and being that they might have only been gettting it in for me alone, who knows why it cost so much. But I think that I am going to be mixing a bit more than I have in the past and adding more veggies. I was useing the fruity TUMS and they still do not care for it too much. We use Evens and like i said, we are doing better record keeping than in the past. Also keeping a closer eye on our prego piggies. So far, the piggies have been with the same feed, same type of bedding, water, and veggies for hte past year. I am starting to think it might be genetics more than anything, after comparing the sows that I have lost in the past 4 months. Live and learn, that is why I am here and asking questions!
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Post by huntscavies on Jun 20, 2007 0:05:11 GMT -5
Hey Edona,
I have been thinking of your post and something has been bothering me! Its the amount of sr feed you are adding. Whats the protein in it? To me thats way to much sweet feed for any of the pigs, by adding that much its like cutting your pellets in half, just way to much. I would stop the sweet feed all together for a while and get their levels down. It concerns me that all that sweet will just cause more problems. Also you know that if you have a sow thats really big and cant reach back to clean a face they can suffocate really easy. Another thing I have seen is if a pup come breach you will lose them unless you are right there to help, its just like when women give birth. If they come feet first and the cord breaks before they can get them out fast enough they will drown inside or swallow the fluid and then you have that rasp sound. You have to put the pup between your hands and being very careful to support their neck and head fling them in a downward motion to ex spell the fluid, I have saved about half the pups that come this way. You will also get dead pups if you have a very big baby first and the mom takes a while to push them out, most likely they will be dead and maybe all the others after that big one to. Another thing I do is if I lose a sow that goes toxic or have to put one down because shes not going to make it, and i know because she never opens so you can help by inducing her, I open her up and poke around. I have found sows that have big litters there always seem to be one baby in there that has caused all the problem. Meaning that one has died father up in the sow and the sows body hasn't been able to break it down and reabsorb it and the body goes toxic because of it. However I have had two sows that have acted like they dumped their litter only to find a baby or two a live three weeks later. Impossible, I thought so to until I seen it twice. Now another explanation is that they conceived two different time and it was a duel litter with the first litter being dumped only to have the next one be fine. We can never fully understand mother nature! Why dose she give us he/shes? Anyone seen those? I have seen three so far from other breeders litters and the only reason they found out was because they were in a pen with sows and acting just like a boar more so then you see with the sows just coming into heat and chasing other sows around. When you flip them over you see both parts, the thingy isn't as big as a full on boar but there is no mistaken it. Right at first when born it looks like a y with that little dot at the top of the y, some sows when born look swollen and then go back down, just like baby boys, when they are born their testicles look giant in size which is normal and then they slowly come down to the right size. Weired but this kinda thing happen in all species even humans! Boy I would love to hang out with mother nature for a year or so! Mean while we have to learn it on our own and with the help of others! Just food for thought! Sherrie
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Post by lilyscavies on Jun 20, 2007 9:49:32 GMT -5
You might be right on the senior feed. I have been cuting back some already, but I don't want to do it too fast. It concernes me to change up feed with prego piggies, but I need to do something. There is always a reason, whether we know it or not, as to why the piggies pass on. Sometimes it has to do with the pig itself, the babies, food (which makes the breeder start thinking/changing) or just plain life. Either way I know I have leanered a GREAT deal from everyone. Edona
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